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	<title>Comments on: Would You Donate Your Virginity to Science?</title>
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	<link>http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/</link>
	<description>''You can never step in the same river twice.''  --Heraclitus</description>
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		<title>By: Centrerion Canadian Politics</title>
		<link>http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-169086</link>
		<dc:creator>Centrerion Canadian Politics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Jul 2006 18:44:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-169086</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Mediocre Media 5!&lt;/strong&gt;
Hello and welcome to the carnival criticizing the media: Mediocre Media! This is a belated ping for the 5th issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Mediocre Media 5!</strong><br />
Hello and welcome to the carnival criticizing the media: Mediocre Media! This is a belated ping for the 5th issue.</p>
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		<title>By: Trader Knowledge</title>
		<link>http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-158547</link>
		<dc:creator>Trader Knowledge</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Jul 2006 12:20:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-158547</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Cavalcade Of Risk - July 5th Edition&lt;/strong&gt;
Welcome to the July 5th edition of the Cavalcade Of Risk - offering insights into the world of risk management.
I trust that everyone had a great July 4th celebration - Just spare a thought for us guys in the southern hemisphere who are experiencing a ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Cavalcade Of Risk &#8211; July 5th Edition</strong><br />
Welcome to the July 5th edition of the Cavalcade Of Risk &#8211; offering insights into the world of risk management.<br />
I trust that everyone had a great July 4th celebration &#8211; Just spare a thought for us guys in the southern hemisphere who are experiencing a &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Commonwealth Conservative</title>
		<link>http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-157284</link>
		<dc:creator>Commonwealth Conservative</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Jul 2006 04:41:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-157284</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Virginia Blog Carnival &#8212; Independence Day edition&lt;/strong&gt;
Happy Independence Day!  Has it really been 230 years?  Celebrate with us, as we present an Independence Day edition of the Virginia Blog Carnival.
Let&#8217;s begin with another addition to the Scenes From Virginia archive, from our friend Bill Schumm...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Virginia Blog Carnival &#8212; Independence Day edition</strong><br />
Happy Independence Day!  Has it really been 230 years?  Celebrate with us, as we present an Independence Day edition of the Virginia Blog Carnival.<br />
Let&#8217;s begin with another addition to the Scenes From Virginia archive, from our friend Bill Schumm&#8230;</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Acksiom</title>
		<link>http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-155907</link>
		<dc:creator>Acksiom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Jul 2006 20:10:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-155907</guid>
		<description>Wait, it gets even better -- that very same apologia-for-circumcision research which Clayton references also reeks of unethical mishandling. . .maybe even more so:  http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV-SA.html

See also this less activist and more mainstream article at CBCNews by Stephen Strauss:  http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_strauss/20051121.html</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wait, it gets even better &#8212; that very same apologia-for-circumcision research which Clayton references also reeks of unethical mishandling. . .maybe even more so:  <a href="http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV-SA.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.circumstitions.com/HIV-SA.html</a></p>
<p>See also this less activist and more mainstream article at CBCNews by Stephen Strauss:  <a href="http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_strauss/20051121.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.cbc.ca/news/viewpoint/vp_strauss/20051121.html</a></p>
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		<title>By: centrerion canadian politics</title>
		<link>http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-155847</link>
		<dc:creator>centrerion canadian politics</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Jul 2006 18:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-155847</guid>
		<description>Brilliant article, editor&#039;s pick in Mediocre Media&#039;s 5th edition, which will be posted later today.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brilliant article, editor&#8217;s pick in Mediocre Media&#8217;s 5th edition, which will be posted later today.</p>
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		<title>By: Different River</title>
		<link>http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-155825</link>
		<dc:creator>Different River</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Jul 2006 18:27:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-155825</guid>
		<description>Clayton Cramer wrote to remind me of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.claytoncramer.com/weblog/2005_07_03_archive.html#112067594779828185&quot;&gt;an earlier post of his&lt;/a&gt; almost exactly a year ago on the connection between circumcision, AIDS, and HPV:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/06/MNGANDJFVK1.DTL&amp;type=printableL&quot;&gt;[A] study in Africa that was examining whether circumcision reduces the risk of men catching AIDS was stopped early&lt;/a&gt;, because it was so clearly true:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
French and South African AIDS researchers have called an early halt to a study of adult male circumcision to reduce HIV infection after initial results reportedly showed that men who had the procedure dramatically lowered their risk of contracting the virus.

The study&#039;s preliminary results, disclosed Tuesday by the Wall Street Journal, showed that circumcision reduced the risk of contracting HIV by 70 percent -- a level of protection far better than the 30 percent risk reduction set as a target for an AIDS vaccine.
...
There &lt;em&gt;is &lt;/em&gt;a reason to suspect a connection between AIDS transmission and circumcision:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Laboratory studies have found that the foreskin is rich in white blood cells, which are favored targets of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. So the theory is that men who are uncircumcised are much more likely to contract the virus during sex with an infected woman, and that the epidemic spreads when these newly infected men have sex with other women within their network of sexual partners.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

As I was reading the article, I found myself wondering if there might be some other factors involved in the disparity in AIDS rates, since circumcision in much of the world is associated with particular religious beliefs.  Sure enough, at the end of the article is a discussion of why this might be a factor:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Although the apparent protective effect of circumcision has been noted for more than 20 years, doubts linger as to whether circumcision itself is protective, or whether the lower risk may be the result of cultural practices among those who circumcise. HIV rates are low in Muslim communities, for example, which practice male circumcision but also engage in ritual washing before sex and frown on promiscuity.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

How well did this study distinguish circumcision from lower promiscuity rates?
&lt;/blockquote&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Clayton Cramer wrote to remind me of <a href="http://www.claytoncramer.com/weblog/2005_07_03_archive.html#112067594779828185">an earlier post of his</a> almost exactly a year ago on the connection between circumcision, AIDS, and HPV:</p>
<blockquote><p>
<a href="http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/07/06/MNGANDJFVK1.DTL&#038;type=printableL">[A] study in Africa that was examining whether circumcision reduces the risk of men catching AIDS was stopped early</a>, because it was so clearly true:</p>
<blockquote><p>
French and South African AIDS researchers have called an early halt to a study of adult male circumcision to reduce HIV infection after initial results reportedly showed that men who had the procedure dramatically lowered their risk of contracting the virus.</p>
<p>The study&#8217;s preliminary results, disclosed Tuesday by the Wall Street Journal, showed that circumcision reduced the risk of contracting HIV by 70 percent &#8212; a level of protection far better than the 30 percent risk reduction set as a target for an AIDS vaccine.<br />
&#8230;<br />
There <em>is </em>a reason to suspect a connection between AIDS transmission and circumcision:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Laboratory studies have found that the foreskin is rich in white blood cells, which are favored targets of HIV, the virus that causes AIDS. So the theory is that men who are uncircumcised are much more likely to contract the virus during sex with an infected woman, and that the epidemic spreads when these newly infected men have sex with other women within their network of sexual partners.
</p></blockquote>
<p>As I was reading the article, I found myself wondering if there might be some other factors involved in the disparity in AIDS rates, since circumcision in much of the world is associated with particular religious beliefs.  Sure enough, at the end of the article is a discussion of why this might be a factor:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Although the apparent protective effect of circumcision has been noted for more than 20 years, doubts linger as to whether circumcision itself is protective, or whether the lower risk may be the result of cultural practices among those who circumcise. HIV rates are low in Muslim communities, for example, which practice male circumcision but also engage in ritual washing before sex and frown on promiscuity.
</p></blockquote>
<p>How well did this study distinguish circumcision from lower promiscuity rates?
</p></blockquote>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: Clayton E. Cramer</title>
		<link>http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-154901</link>
		<dc:creator>Clayton E. Cramer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 22:26:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-154901</guid>
		<description>I am really bugged by how much of the establishment keeps silent about HPV&#039;s prevalence and the risk that it creates.  When the connection was first discovered, in the early 1990s, my biology professor mentioned this in one of his lectures.  Back in the 1920s, Jewish women in America had MUCH lower rates of cervical cancer than Gentile women, and there was an assumption that it had something to do with circumcision, since this was still relatively rare among Gentiles, and nearly universal among Jewish men.  Then he mentioned the recent research showing that the risk of cervical cancer rose dramatically as a woman&#039;s number of sexual partners exceeded three per lifetime.  You could hear a lot of gasps from the women in the classroom--many of who exceeded that quota over the previous weekend.  It turned out that into the 1920s, Jewish women were MUCH more likely to marry as virgins than Gentile women, and this was the cause of low cervical cancer rates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am really bugged by how much of the establishment keeps silent about HPV&#8217;s prevalence and the risk that it creates.  When the connection was first discovered, in the early 1990s, my biology professor mentioned this in one of his lectures.  Back in the 1920s, Jewish women in America had MUCH lower rates of cervical cancer than Gentile women, and there was an assumption that it had something to do with circumcision, since this was still relatively rare among Gentiles, and nearly universal among Jewish men.  Then he mentioned the recent research showing that the risk of cervical cancer rose dramatically as a woman&#8217;s number of sexual partners exceeded three per lifetime.  You could hear a lot of gasps from the women in the classroom&#8211;many of who exceeded that quota over the previous weekend.  It turned out that into the 1920s, Jewish women were MUCH more likely to marry as virgins than Gentile women, and this was the cause of low cervical cancer rates.</p>
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		<title>By: bearing</title>
		<link>http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-154894</link>
		<dc:creator>bearing</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 21:52:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-154894</guid>
		<description>I agree with Nantoling that many of your suspicions, had you checked them out, would prove 
unfounded.  And I think this kind of research is quite valuable.  But you do raise some
interesting points.  The most important, IMO, are the ones surrounding consent --- 
particularly for the male partners.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with Nantoling that many of your suspicions, had you checked them out, would prove<br />
unfounded.  And I think this kind of research is quite valuable.  But you do raise some<br />
interesting points.  The most important, IMO, are the ones surrounding consent &#8212;<br />
particularly for the male partners.</p>
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		<title>By: Different River</title>
		<link>http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-154849</link>
		<dc:creator>Different River</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 18:45:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-154849</guid>
		<description>I was wondering how long it would take someone to say that....  :-(

Like the girls, some would and some wouldn&#039;t.  Maybe the proportions would be higher for the guys, but surely not 100%.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was wondering how long it would take someone to say that&#8230;.  <img src='http://www.differentriver.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Like the girls, some would and some wouldn&#8217;t.  Maybe the proportions would be higher for the guys, but surely not 100%.</p>
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		<title>By: Bruce</title>
		<link>http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-154735</link>
		<dc:creator>Bruce</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jun 2006 15:11:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-154735</guid>
		<description>I&#039;d just like to note that they didn&#039;t ask teenage guys to sign up.  I think if you asked guys to donate their virginity to science they would probably say YES!!!!!!!!!!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;d just like to note that they didn&#8217;t ask teenage guys to sign up.  I think if you asked guys to donate their virginity to science they would probably say YES!!!!!!!!!!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Nantoling</title>
		<link>http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-153790</link>
		<dc:creator>Nantoling</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jun 2006 02:47:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-153790</guid>
		<description>Iâ€™m wasnâ€™t familiar with this study until I saw your entry, but it seems to me that you are making  too much of a fairly standard observational study.  You make some interesting points about it, but I think some of your statements are misleading: 

1. You state that the researchers essentially asked female virgins to lose their virginity. If so, they didnâ€™t do a very good job of it. Certainly the NEJM paper only includes data on the 82 students who had vaginal intercourse during (or immediately before) the years they spent in the study, but as you note yourself, 65 more students went through the study without ever having vaginal sex. The  virgin students werenâ€™t included in the statistical analyses, but this is for the very good reason that their data wouldnâ€™t shed any light on the question of whether condoms reduce the risk of HPV infection. (Excluding their data from analysis does not, by the way, mean that the virgin students wouldnâ€™t receive a study stipend. In an observational study like this, a stipend is typically given for a subjectâ€™s time and trouble in filling out forms and making clinic visits, and the virgin students would have visited the clinic just as often as the sexually active students.) 

2. You state that the researchers failed to inform participants of all the risks of participating in the study â€“ that is, all the risks of having sex in the first place. However, the students werenâ€™t required to have sex to participate in the study â€“ the study only tracked the HPV rates of those who did. Look at it this way: if I were performing an observational study of the cholesterol levels of college students, does this mean that Iâ€™d be somehow encouraging them to eat unhealthy foods? Or that Iâ€™d be responsible for informing them of the dangers of emotional eating? 

3. You state that the study didnâ€™t obtain consent from more than half the participants being studied â€“ that is, the womenâ€™s male partners. It seems to me unreasonable to consider them study participants in any sense. The data collected on the men included number of sexual encounters, whether they were circumcised, whether they used condoms, and whether they reported having had prior partners. There is no indication that the data collected for the study included any information that could be used to actually identify the men (and this would be unusual); in fact, the study diaries kept by the women were undoubtedly far more discreet that their emails, their blogs, or their chats with friends. Even if having sex with a 19 year-old were an activity that carried a reasonable expectation of complete discretion, there&#039;s no indication that their privacy was invaded. 

4. You state that the researchers obviously couldnâ€™t be encouraging condom use, as this â€œwould ruin their research.â€ Given that the entire reason the study was published in the most prestigious medical journal in the country is precisely that they DID find that condom use might lower HPV infection rates, this statement seems definitely incorrect. 

Thanks for giving me an opportunity to comment.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Iâ€™m wasnâ€™t familiar with this study until I saw your entry, but it seems to me that you are making  too much of a fairly standard observational study.  You make some interesting points about it, but I think some of your statements are misleading: </p>
<p>1. You state that the researchers essentially asked female virgins to lose their virginity. If so, they didnâ€™t do a very good job of it. Certainly the NEJM paper only includes data on the 82 students who had vaginal intercourse during (or immediately before) the years they spent in the study, but as you note yourself, 65 more students went through the study without ever having vaginal sex. The  virgin students werenâ€™t included in the statistical analyses, but this is for the very good reason that their data wouldnâ€™t shed any light on the question of whether condoms reduce the risk of HPV infection. (Excluding their data from analysis does not, by the way, mean that the virgin students wouldnâ€™t receive a study stipend. In an observational study like this, a stipend is typically given for a subjectâ€™s time and trouble in filling out forms and making clinic visits, and the virgin students would have visited the clinic just as often as the sexually active students.) </p>
<p>2. You state that the researchers failed to inform participants of all the risks of participating in the study â€“ that is, all the risks of having sex in the first place. However, the students werenâ€™t required to have sex to participate in the study â€“ the study only tracked the HPV rates of those who did. Look at it this way: if I were performing an observational study of the cholesterol levels of college students, does this mean that Iâ€™d be somehow encouraging them to eat unhealthy foods? Or that Iâ€™d be responsible for informing them of the dangers of emotional eating? </p>
<p>3. You state that the study didnâ€™t obtain consent from more than half the participants being studied â€“ that is, the womenâ€™s male partners. It seems to me unreasonable to consider them study participants in any sense. The data collected on the men included number of sexual encounters, whether they were circumcised, whether they used condoms, and whether they reported having had prior partners. There is no indication that the data collected for the study included any information that could be used to actually identify the men (and this would be unusual); in fact, the study diaries kept by the women were undoubtedly far more discreet that their emails, their blogs, or their chats with friends. Even if having sex with a 19 year-old were an activity that carried a reasonable expectation of complete discretion, there&#8217;s no indication that their privacy was invaded. </p>
<p>4. You state that the researchers obviously couldnâ€™t be encouraging condom use, as this â€œwould ruin their research.â€ Given that the entire reason the study was published in the most prestigious medical journal in the country is precisely that they DID find that condom use might lower HPV infection rates, this statement seems definitely incorrect. </p>
<p>Thanks for giving me an opportunity to comment.</p>
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		<title>By: Wizbang Bomb Squad</title>
		<link>http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-153700</link>
		<dc:creator>Wizbang Bomb Squad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jun 2006 23:16:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://differentriver.com/archives/2006/06/28/would-you-donate-your-virginity-to-science/#comment-153700</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;Would you donate your virginity to science?&lt;/strong&gt;
&quot;Researchers&quot; at the University of Washington asked young women to volunteer to lose their virginity for a study on human papillioma virus (HPV).  Then they checked to see if they got HPV.  Which by the way seriously increases the risk of cervical ca...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Would you donate your virginity to science?</strong><br />
&#8220;Researchers&#8221; at the University of Washington asked young women to volunteer to lose their virginity for a study on human papillioma virus (HPV).  Then they checked to see if they got HPV.  Which by the way seriously increases the risk of cervical ca&#8230;</p>
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